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nonbinary stuff 

As an aside, can people please stop using ‘enby’ to mean all nonbinary people when lots of nonbinary people have repeatedly said that they’re uncomfortable being referred to as ‘enbies’

(I suspect the answer is ‘no’, because I’ve requested this several times before and it keeps happening anyway, but might as well ask again)

nonbinary stuff 

@dreadpirateyarr I don't expect this to be solved until the gender/age term matrix is complete. There's a missing term, and people use the infantilizing "enby" as a substitute. The only other current alternative is the full "nonbinary person" at a whopping 16 characters and 6 syllables, and therefore quite a mouthful.

The aforementioned matrix:
Boy/Man
Girl/Woman
Enby/???

nonbinary stuff 

@LunaDragofelis yeah, I can see why it came about because there’s no snappy noun for anyone to use. I saw someone suggest ‘enber’ on another site, which is less cutesy but I can’t see it catching on

nonbinary stuff 

@robotcarsley @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis Oh, yeah. I like enber. Feels more... Respectful?

Re: it catching on; in my experience a negative instruction (don't do this) tends to work nowhere near as well as a positive instruction (do that instead) - even when given to yourself.

So if you start actively identifying as enber (if you like the term), chances are others will pick up on that.

nonbinary stuff 

@robotcarsley @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis NB: (as in nota bene, not as in non-binary or non-black) The "even when given to yourself" is kind of irrelevant to this particular discussion tho it's related to how I discovered this pattern.

nonbinary stuff 

@robotcarsley @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis This post has been on my mind and. If I were to identify as non-binary, I would definitely demand to be referred to as an enberor.

nonbinary stuff 

@robotcarsley @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis Maybe it sounds like I'm taking the piss but I'm being like, mostly unironic (some self-deprecating mock self-glorification in there which I guess is some kind of irony).

nonbinary stuff 

@dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis I like the look of enber better that others I've encountered (enban/enben (like man/men or woman/women)) but idk. At this point I'd rather stick with NB or nonbinary or person

Enby grew on me somehow, but yeah, afaik it was made to be a boy/girl equiv, so definitely kinda infantalising.

nonbinary stuff 

@LunaDragofelis @dreadpirateyarr

Uhh..

Enby is just an abbreviation of Non-binary; So yes you shouldn't say "enbys" but instead "non-binary folk"

This is because NB is taken already.

I really don't see why enby is infantilizing but that's just my opinion :x

nonbinary stuff 

@LunaDragofelis @dreadpirateyarr

to clarify: boy/girl are nouns, enby is just an abbreviation for non-binary, which is an adjective. :blobsmilesweat:

nonbinary stuff 

@viomi @LunaDragofelis I don’t know if I would call it infantilising exactly, but I find it to have a cutesy and overly-familiar sound, so it’s fine for other people to use it as a term for themselves but I don’t like it being used for me (like how the diminutive forms of words in English often have a ‘-y’ or ‘-ie’ attached to them, like ‘girlie’)

nonbinary stuff 

@dreadpirateyarr @viomi @LunaDragofelis its the trouble of conflicting dysphoria and gender association and dissociation within one combined group that is non-binary people. When such a large portion of people who are non-binary like the cuteness that enby bestows (like girl or boy instead of woman and man), you may as well be shouting at the sun.

nonbinary stuff 

@dreadpirateyarr @viomi @LunaDragofelis Honestly a better option would be to liken enby to like calling women "girls". Thats the level of social faux pas it should be suggested at.

nonbinary stuff 

@dreadpirateyarr @viomi @LunaDragofelis Oh jeez sorry Luna, just realised id gone right round in a circle in my head and suggested what you said already. v.v

nonbinary stuff 

@mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis

guys.. enby is just the abbreviation written differently, but to still sound like the letters N and B when said out loud. It's not cutesy or familiar -n-

nonbinary stuff 

@mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis that's not how English works, people will read that as enbeh

nonbinary stuff 

@viomi @mxsiege @LunaDragofelis I know where it comes from but I have never used the term ‘NB’ for myself either and would just like my experience of being uncomfortable with the term ‘enby’ because of its diminutive sound to be respected

nonbinary stuff 

@dreadpirateyarr @mxsiege @LunaDragofelis

It sounds exactly like the abbreviation,, I.. I don't know what to tell you. Where did you assign this diminutive value to it, did you have a specific conversation or did someone start using it in a weird way somewhere online? This makes no sense to me.

I will respect POC's wishes,, sorry. I will continue to abbreviate Non-binary as enby instead of nb.

nonbinary stuff 

@viomi @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis Ah i know this one, its The Bouba-Kiki Effect.

Sounds create shapes tangibly in our heads based on rules that are inherent in humans.

So we instinctively know of these two shapes which is a Bouba and which is a Kiki

nonbinary stuff 

@mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis I don't have visual thinking and have no idea what you're talking about

nonbinary stuff 

@mxsiege @viomi @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis small abbreviations can exist within different spaces and different contexts and co-exist quite happily (and obviously separately)... POC is just as familiarly "proof of concept", too. I can't think of a sentence in context where the intention of the NB abbreviation can be confused easily enough that it could be misinterpreted in good faith

nonbinary stuff 

@mxsiege @viomi @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis I can, however, see how pushing the title for an identity onto somebody when they literally don't identify as it and reject it can be a massive problem

nonbinary stuff 

@Shrigglepuss @mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis it's not a title for an identity it's just a different way of spelling the abbreviation to avoid very easy confusion with nb and nbpoc

nonbinary stuff 

@Shrigglepuss @mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis

NBPOC.

Non-black person of color or non-binary person of color

Very easy to confuse, very easy to avoid using nb

nonbinary stuff 

@Shrigglepuss @viomi @mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis it does originate from non-black person of color tho and thats why most use the phrase enby.

nonbinary stuff 

@cute @viomi @mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis This isn't exactly a chicken or egg argument is it? It's a two letter abbreviation, two letter abbreviations can mean different things or easily be vague without appropriate context. If there's any chance of there being any confusion within a particular sentence then they can be unabbreviated but that doesn't excuse that "non-binary" and "enby" are not the same thing for all people and that can't be ignored like it's nothing

nonbinary stuff 

@Shrigglepuss @cute @mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis

Except there are way too many occasions for this particular mix-up to happen and we've been asked by poc to use enby,,

nonbinary stuff 

@Shrigglepuss @cute @mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis and yes non-binary and enby are the same thing that's what an abbreviation is

nonbinary stuff 

@viomi @cute @mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis It may well be the same thing to you, but until you can see that it's not the same to a whole ton of other people I'm going to have to bow out of this because it'll be discourse for discourses' sake otherwise

nonbinary stuff 

@Shrigglepuss @cute @mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis no it's literally just writing the acronym slightly differently to be less confusing it's not a new word 😩 this ain't about definitions or viewpoints

nonbinary stuff 

@Shrigglepuss @mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis

Well uhh I'm gonna believe poc over you regarding that sorry :)

nonbinary stuff 

@viomi @mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis I'm going to struggle to be schooled by somebody that entered a conversation by saying an entire group of people's preferred word for *their own gender* "shouldn't" be said because you've not respected their experience, then to address three people that aren't male/masculine overfamiliarly as "guys" while continuing not to respect nuances of how people experience gender differently/insisting that you understand what overfamiliar is

nonbinary stuff 

@viomi @mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis All of this also while "tryin to be respectful" over an abbreviation that's litereally the shortest number of letters needed to even be an abbreviation that's very easy to understand when used in different contexts. It doesn't wash for me, I'm afraid.

nonbinary stuff 

@Shrigglepuss @mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis

But ok if u just wanna ignore people of color go right ahead ur prerogative

nonbinary stuff 

@mxsiege @viomi @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis is this true across writing systems? Because my first thought would be that in one of the words all the letters are rounded and in the other they're very pointy.

nonbinary stuff 

@robotcarsley i dont think so. i can logic my way into understanding what this means, but in my mother language it doesn't quite work the same. cutsey, diminutive is signified by -ita or -ito. my grandfather calls me "mijita" or "babita", rather than the mature mija. so it took me a moment to understand what this was about lol

nonbinary stuff 

@robotcarsley i also dont have minds eye view/ visual thinking ability so sounds dont translate to visuals, but i understand the logic.

nonbinary stuff 

@viomi @mxsiege @LunaDragofelis and I’ve said that I have never used the abbreviation, have no interest in going against POC’s wishes, and plenty of other nonbinary people have also said they think it sounds too cutesy for them, I haven’t just up and ‘assigned’ anything on my own. Also I explained how the diminutive form in English attaches ‘-y’ to the ends of words, providing an example of why ‘enby’ can sound diminutive to people

nonbinary stuff 

@viomi @mxsiege @dreadpirateyarr @LunaDragofelis everyone who does not fit in the gender binary is a diverse category in itself, getting other'd isn't good but the taxonomy is still useful.

Also, the issue is with enby SOUNDing cute, at the same time being an abbreviation using the letters N and B. Changing how you write this doesn't solve the problem. An entirely different low syllable term is required, but you can't accomplish this in ONE term without "othering" someone.

re: "nb" being "taken" 

@viomi @dreadpirateyarr I don't think abbreviations this short can be exclusively "taken" by any one group. Also "nonbinary folk" is still 14 characters and five syllables.

re: "nb" being "taken" 

@LunaDragofelis @dreadpirateyarr

NB is non-black.. For usage in NBPOC.. which makes those abbreviations extremely confusing and misleading if we started using NB instead of enby. People of color have asked that we use enby instead of NB.

I'm white, so.. I'm not gonna start using NB, sorry.

nonbinary stuff 

@dreadpirateyarr apologies, I've definitely done this but I'll make sure not to make that mistake again

nonbinary stuff 

@dreadpirateyarr I believe a lot of your fellow nonbinary people like me are a part of this problem, I'll try to reflect on how to not exclude those of our sibs who reject that label

nonbinary stuff 

@anarchiv thank you, I don’t want anyone to stop identifying with the term if they like it, I’m just one of the people who don’t

nonbinary stuff 

@dreadpirateyarr yeah and that deserves acknowledgement, acknowledgement that I sometimes fail to give

nonbinary stuff 

@dreadpirateyarr hey sorry you got so much weird pushback on this post, you're absolutely right and deserve respect on this position

nonbinary stuff 

@dreadpirateyarr thank you for saying this, i’d never thought about it like this before and i’m going to be more aware of it. 😌

nonbinary stuff 

@dreadpirateyarr some of the replies to this though...you're allowed to find the word uncomfortable! I've taken this on board too as I'd never really thought about it before. Sending love 💕

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