Mastodon grumbling 

Is the official How to Protect Yourself From a Harmful Environment (The Fediverse) For New Users method "just don't look at the bigger picture of all this mess" now? How about something along the lines of "blocks that work", or "muting instances that works", or "having the two massive flagship instances moderated properly to set a good example" instead of trying to brush an entire landscape under the rug :thonk:

Mastodon grumbling 

Remember when Purism tried this with their freeze peach instance (with Eugen's help at the time, no less)? It's dangerous, irresponsible, and lazy.

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Mastodon grumbling 

If Eugen is so ashamed of the monster he's created that he feels the majority of it should be hidden away like a dirty little secret in the official iOS app he could use that shame towards building better tools towards a healthier and safer social space like people have been literally begging for and suggesting since 2017

Mastodon grumbling 

AND! If this is for new users using the iOS app for the first time, they will be under a false sense of how far and accessible their toots are to the wider Fediverse and all the nasty malicious people it harbours so freely as most other people here have the federated timeline available to them as a feature. If any of those new users are particularly vulnerable to the nastier spaces here without knowing that risk from the start it's very a very bad action to be secret about it

Mastodon grumbling 

So this hiding away of the federated timeline isn't a benefit to new users at all, nor an "ignorance is bliss" convenience, it's absolutely a harm and putting new users that don't understand the dynamics here into an avoidable danger

Mastodon grumbling 

First rule of The Fediverse: this place can be dangerous to you and you're on your own with that
Second rule of The Fediverse: the tools to protect yourself from people that want to do you harm basically don't work because some out of touch nerds said they like it better that way

Mastodon grumbling 

Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED Talk. I am old and angry and tired, please clap

Mastodon grumbling 

@Shrigglepuss 馃憦馃憦馃憦

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@Shrigglepuss Well, since you asked. 馃憦

Also, well said.

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@Shrigglepuss you pulled no punches and its exactly what he deserves. tbh ive been watching tobi dumpsterqueers gotosocial project with hope that it might fix a good few of these problems and so far the things theyre doing look really damn good

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@slimewolf thankfully there's several different decentralised social networks being built quietly out there learning these lessons and once they're mature enough we can all fuck off 馃挭 (well, Twitter are working on one too so maybe not theirs)

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@Shrigglepuss @slimewolf

Heh. The couple of times I thought of returning to Twitter I literally gave myself anxiety headaches so no. But if you have other leads in the future please make sure you boost them a lot. (I would naturally give priority to one which didn't demand that I have genius levels of computer knowledge.)

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@xenophora @slimewolf I'll be very vocal when that time comes, don't worry =p

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@Shrigglepuss @slimewolf I mean really, if you want the original federated social network: setup a BBS (or apply to get onto one) and make sure it鈥檚 hooked up to SpookNet and FidoNet and the like.

Or there鈥檚 USENET.

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@rebello @slimewolf Usenet was an unholy mess too tbf

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@Shrigglepuss @slimewolf Yeah fair dos, but only really when the bastards that were AOL opened it up to random teenagers who didn鈥檛 have a clue what they were doing.

Thankfully, if you setup your killfiles properly and choose your newsgroups wisely it still works: I鈥檓 still on comp.sys.acorn

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@Shrigglepuss Also: 馃憦馃憦馃憦 @slimewolf

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@rebello @slimewolf social media should be accessible and welcoming and safe so being hostile towards newcomer teens and needing a computer science degree isn't a good start :oh_no:

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@Shrigglepuss @slimewolf Yeah you鈥檙e right there, given that I鈥檓 just about part of that age group, just much more computer science oriented (I think I鈥檓 the only person who enjoys GCSE work), I should have insider knowledge.

I tried for donkeys to try and get them to listen, but they鈥檙e so hooked on the Instagram and TikTok drug, I鈥檝e fucked off.

I鈥檒l have to do some brainstorming鈥

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@Shrigglepuss
Reddit is open to teenagers. Gaze your eyes upon it and despair. 馃檭

@rebello @slimewolf

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@Shrigglepuss leaving a social network for a newer one once it's grown too big or become too mainstream, seems to par for the course by now. (Though I still miss the consumer version of #GooglePlus which got a lot of these things right) (Yes, I know Diaspora* is very like GPlus was, but its UI and UX still suck, and it's still missing features such as Collections)

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@slimewolf @Shrigglepuss do you have a link to the project?

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@slimewolf
From the gotosocial webpage:

> Various federation modes

> 'Normal' federation; discover new servers.
> Allowlist-only federation; choose which servers you talk to.
> Zero federation; keep your server private.

Damn, Eugen's days as ruler of Mastodon development are counted.

I wonder how the landscape will change in a few years. (Here's me hoping circles is actually implemented and put in goto social.)

@Shrigglepuss

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@slimewolf @Shrigglepuss
oh, "groups" are in their wishlist!

This project needs to be funded. Like now.

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@slimewolf @Shrigglepuss @yuki where is go to socials wish list?

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@blindscribe @slimewolf @yuki (note: I'm not sure how accessible Github pages are for you), but the wishlist is on their Github page here:
github.com/superseriousbusines

re: Mastodon grumbling 

@slimewolf @Shrigglepuss as soon as they add SQLite support, I'll be trying it out

@Shrigglepuss People don鈥檛 need to see a feed of all posts on Blogspot to know that they鈥檙e writing a public blog post and it鈥檚 going to be seen by people they don鈥檛 know. You also don鈥檛 see everything that鈥檚 going on in the fediverse through the federated timeline. You don鈥檛 even see everything your server knows about because replies and reblogs are hidden and you might have language filters on on top of that

@Shrigglepuss To suggest that you have to read it all to be 鈥渟afe鈥 and not being able to is 鈥渉arm鈥 is just an unrealistic way to spin the situation

@Gargron @Shrigglepuss I agree more with the OP, if you can't see the timelines you're posting to you can't understand federation, you can't know what's appropriate to be sending on a website where your posts can end up on kiwifarms and poast, you can't determine how to protect yourself. If you get new users they could end up more at risk when your instances are open registration and unmoderated which people will and do exploit.

You could have at least set disable them by default with an option to re-enable but it does seem more like the liability you want to avoid is your own instances. You should consider arguing with normal people criticizing this less and listening to the feedback, your experience on this site is vastly different from the trans and POC users that get targeted.

@Gargron Spin, spin, spin, that word, ffs! Everything you don't agree with is basically a 鈥渟pin鈥 of the situation. You are the one spinning the whole Fediverse. Fuck off, you're not doing any favor whatsoever to the Fediverse, you're just being a jerk.
@Shrigglepuss

@Gargron @Shrigglepuss It's not really about reading it all to be safe; it's more about knowing that the whole Fediverse can read your public posts, so you can take safety measures. See? You're the one spinning the situation here.

@Gargron but it's a feature you built into this thing, an aspect of the culture of this network, and new users need to be made aware that's the sort of instant public exposure they're putting themselves out to. Hiding that other users en-masse can see what they're posting in public doesn't give new users an accurate and early sense of their reach, potential audience, and the risks that can bring with it

@Shrigglepuss Well said.

@Gargron You seem to be unaware of how the community around the software you wrote works. Or expressly ignorant thereof.

@Shrigglepuss @Gargron In any case, if you're feeling like informing yourself on how mastodon works in practice, give this a read toot.cat/@cadadr/1066399506651

Basically, Mastodon has a lot of missing stairs.

@Shrigglepuss @Gargron Bingo! New users will not immediately get just how public their instance is, and thus, their posts. Great point there!

@Gargron @Shrigglepuss I'm a recent new user (I joined last week) and I found it very helpful to have the federated timeline, which gives me an idea of what kind of community I started out in. I also like that it's a unique way of discovering more people, compared to the weirder algorithms elsewhere.

Mastodon grumbling 

@Shrigglepuss this is such a weird and stupid choice (and also illustrative of why developers often make bad designers)

Mastodon grumbling 

@scarfwitch @Shrigglepuss He is, as he says himself, basing the decision of his own experiences, and considering the two beasts of servers he's running, the Federated and Local timelines are TRASH.

Here the local timeline is great, and the federated timeline isn't too bad either tbh.

Mastodon grumbling 

@Shrigglepuss His reasoning was, if he showed the federated stuff, then Apple would ban his app, but that was quite telling all by itself. theverge.com/2021/7/30/2260227

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